Should 16 year olds be allowed to drink in pubs?
When a senior police officer proposed raising the legal drinking age to 21 last year, I nearly spat my beer out. Peter Lahy, Cheshire chief plod, was the culprit. Outside of the Islamic world, only a handful of countries are as restrictive as that. It would be an affront to young people, and put Britain out of step with the rest of Europe.
In sharp contrast, Phil Dixon - a drinks industry consultant and journalist - has suggested going in precisely the opposite direction in an effort to encourage responsible drinking. During a BBC Radio 2 debate hosted by Jeremy Vine, he argued that 16-year-olds should be allowed to drink in pubs:
“It’s a stark choice of reality – you either have them in a controlled, supervised environment or you send them up alleyways and into parks and round the back of bike sheds, where according to teachers, they are drinking neat vodka. Now, which is best for society? The Government needs to look at the more difficult solutions.”Graham Taylor, a former police officer who believes the drinking age should be raised to 21, angrily responded to Dixon's arguments:
"Pubs are not well managed. My daughter is 16 and regularly goes to pubs and clubs and drinks . . . You can’t tell me these people are going to be very vigilant because they are not . . . You are saying this because you are selling the stuff and you want kids in the pubs so you can sell more alcohol to them and get them drunk."I've been thinking about the issue based on my own experiences. I'll hold my hands up: I started drinking in pubs, bars and clubs at the beginning of my fifth year at secondary school. I was 15 (and three-quarters). We weren't drinking in the area's finest alehouses - far from it. The venues of choice were filled with dry ice, loud music, and reeked of cheap perfume smothered over spotty adolescents. Aggressive bouncers held sway, while the police sat outside waiting for the fights to kick off at closing time. We'd spend most of our night in bars with drinks offers: a pound for a pint of cheap lager (UK-brewed Labatts and Fosters were popular) or a triple measure of house spirits. Most weekends, we'd get wrecked.
Were we safer than the kids who confined their drinking to the "alleyways and parks"? I think not. If I'm honest, I wouldn't have had it any other way back then. But looking back, Taylor is right: the pubs and bars teenagers drink in aren't safe for inexperienced young people. They're binge-drinking dens run by unscrupulous people, who are happy to allow the law to be broken if they can turn a profit. And it's they who would benefit from a change to the law. 16-year-olds wouldn't want to drink in the adult environment of a properly-run pub, and probably wouldn't be welcome there anyway.
I do think we have a problematic drinking culture in Britain, and I do think government should seek to tackle it, through legislation if necessary. But baby steps to prohibitionism aren't the way forward, and they terrify me. So a part of me wants to cheer on Dixon's bold approach. Instead of pandering to the prejudices of Middle England bigots, who dislike youth and have little time for communal activities like pub-going, he's tried to steer the discussion onto a more sensible path. However, I just don't think lowering the legal drinking age is helpful, let alone politically feasible.
Stonch lives in London, where he runs a pub.
20 comments:
Someone who can responsibly drink in moderation could possibly be a person younger than 16, but there are reasons why it doesn't work in many cases.
Well said, Stonch.
This whole issue is kicking off over here, with the Government Advisory Group on Alcohol due to report next month (the submission on behalf of IrishCraftBrewer I helped draft is here). This has brought all manner of batshit schemes into the open, my favourite being the proposal to issue 18-25 year-olds with alcohol credit cards to limit the amount they're allowed buy.
We'll probably just end up with an excise duty hike, as tried and failed before, applying the same rate to a tray of Dutch Gold as to a bottle of Westmalle Dubbel.
Currently, it's supermarkets supplying cheap booze who are responsible for teenage binge drinking. Even if kids were allowed to drink in some pubs, the booze there would still be too expensive for lots of the kids and the problem would remain on our streets.
Actually, I'm not sure teenagers do get their booze from supermarkets, as they tend to be open environments where supervisors and other customers have an eye on what goes on at the checkouts. And why would an employee of a supermarket chain want to break the law and serve an underage kid with alcohol?
Corner shops and offies, which tend to be owner-operated, are a different story. And they aren't terribly cheap. So blaming cheap supermarkets offers for underage drinking doesn't seem right to me.
I'd tend to agree with you: over 16's or 17's should be allowed in pubs rather than loitering around in backalleys with drinks bought by "friends". BTW, alcohool is much cheaper now in real income terms than 20 years ago.
In the US, drinks are prohibited to under 21's, I don't think the result is better...
This is a very interesting debate. My early drinking experiences are similar to yours, and I definitely recognise your descriptions of the kinds of seedy places that would let under-agers in.
But I suppose the point is that if you lowered the drinking age, you wouldn't have to confine yourself to just the unscrupulous pubs.
The other thing that comes into play is price. Yes, there may not be active supervision of drinkers in a pub, but there aren't many 16 year olds with enough ready cash to binge in a pub. You can get a bottle of cheap vodka in a supermarket or offy for less than the price of three pints. So I'd argue that drinking in a pub is inherently safer because you can't afford to get as wasted as you can from the offlicence.
All that said... imagine that you did provide "safe drinking environments" for young people. How many would actually take advantage of them? Isn't part of the point of teenage drinking to be doing something you shouldn't be?
Finally - there's been a lot in the press about teenage drinking, but what is the evidence basis to suggest that this is an increasing problem? The only data I've seen is based on what teenagers *say* they drink. I'm not saying that society should be complacent, but a lot of this strikes me as the usual tabloid rubbish.
“It’s a stark choice of reality – you either have them in a controlled, supervised environment or you send them up alleyways and into parks and round the back of bike sheds, where according to teachers, they are drinking neat vodka. Now, which is best for society? The Government needs to look at the more difficult solutions.”
So he's suggesting turning pubs into some sort of adolescent crèche, unbelievable! And who does he suggest is responsible for supervising these kids?
What sort of idiot is this bloke!!
Interesting post Stonch. My kids (3 of them in their 20's) were exposed to alcohol from an early age. One of them doesn't drink much at all and the other two are 'into ale'. I'm concerned for their long term wellbeing, but I'm realistic enough to realise that given the intelligence and education it's a decision we all make for ourselves (ie what we take to entertain/buoy ourselves and where we draw lines). Those kids who 'binge drink' do so possibly as an alternative - or addition - to taking drugs. It's the effect they're after rather than anything else. Our UK culture has bred these kids and the cause is, I suspect, much more wide-ranging than is relevant to this blog. We need to look at our society and its influences as a whole before making snap judgements. There's a much bigger picture involved and - as you state - just raising/lowering legal age limits doesn't come close to solving any of the problems our society's seeing at the moment.
I tend to agree with Stonch - the supermarkets may be to blame for many things, but underage drinking isn't one of them. The dodgy offie is more of a problem.
However, I'm not sure that allowing kids into pubs is going to improve the situation. A subtle but fundamental shift in attitudes is what is required in order to take away the idea that getting blind drunk is the only purpose of alcohol, and that doing this is in someway big and clever.
Somebloke, when you talk about the alcohol-related "problems our society's seeing at the moment", it suggests you think that it hasn't always been so. Is underage and binge drinking anything new? I'd suggest they aren't.
Martin - "The dodgy offie is more of a problem". Exactly. And yet this week we had Professor John Ashton, director of public health in Cumbria, saying this in relation to teenage drinking:
”It is clear to me the real problem is the sourcing of cheap alcohol through the supermarkets and it is time we stopped all of that and put off-sales back into off-licences where they can be properly regulated.”
It seems to me that so many of the people who get wheeled out to talk about this problem don't understand it at all.
It seems to me that so many of the people who get wheeled out to talk about this problem don't understand it at all.
There's definitely some sort of autopilot that engages, like they've already decided the solution without actually looking at what the problem is. Confront them with the facts in any forum you can.
the real problem is the sourcing of cheap alcohol through the supermarkets
In my day we could only steal as many of Dad's cans as we thought he wouldn't notice. Now we just take a tray or two from the stack at the back.
Do 16 year olds not drink in pubs now? I'm really not sure what good any one thinks lowering or raising the legal drinking age is going to do, I'm sure that the vast majority of your readers had their first pint before the legal age, I know I did (hand pulled magnet when I was 14!).
Somebloke - I'm in my 20's (just) and "into my ale" my sister is teetotal and lives in the gym, sometimes I wonder if we're from the same litter! However I reckon my Granda had it right when he said that "it's the quality of life you lead that matters not the quantity" if they're happy then you've done your job right. (sounds rich coming from a childless youngster but it's from the heart)
Cheers
John
16 year olds are allowed to buy beer,cider or perry in a pub provided that a meal is accompanies a meal on the premises.It seems strange that the age rises to 18 as soon as they leave the table!
One of the problems in controlling under age "overdrinking" is that they get older friends to do the buying for them.You can put all the controls in the world on drink outlets, the simple fact is that the vast majority is bought legally and passed on.
Corner shops and offies, which tend to be owner-operated, are a different story. And they aren't terribly cheap. So blaming cheap supermarkets offers for underage drinking doesn't seem right to me.
There have been a few reported cases recently of supermarkets selling alcohol to young children and subsequently losing their alcohol licences as a result.
My mate - a non-nonsense ex-army type - has a corner shop and he sells alcohol. A few weeks ago the police came round after they'd caught some teenage drinkers who said they got the booze from his shop.
The police started laying down the law and getting really heavy until my mate pointed out that he didn't sell that particular brand in his shop for precisely the reason it was often drunk by kids. Cue retreat by sheepish boys in blue.
Nice to know that they took the word of the kids first rather than be sure of their facts...
Martin: "A subtle but fundamental shift in attitudes is what is required."
I absolutely agree. Whenever the idea of lowering the legal drinking age is raised, supporters point to the lower legal age on the continent, and the more responsible attitude to drink that accompanies it. Spanish, Italian and French children enjoying a glass of wine with their parents over food is the image of responsible drinking that is conjured up.
But (and marquis got here just before me) they seem to forget that in the UK, kids of 16 or 17 are already allowed to drink beer, cider or wine alonside a meal with the licesee's permission, and can do so from the age of 5 at home. If these provisions haven't already engendered a responsible attitude, then a wholesale lowering of the legal drinking age won't do anything either. Apart, that is, from allowing younger people access to the dreadful cheap binge drinking dens which will target their pockets.
Sometimes the law can be changed to engender a change in society, but I think this is a situation where attitudes have to change, and then the law will change to reflect it.
It's easy to blame dodgy off licences, i'm sure there are plenty around but lots of these kids will walk in and steal booze straight from the shelves. They are getting better and more brazen at it too. An assistant at my local mini-mart was telling me how kids on occasion have picked up a case of beer on offer and simply walked out of the store with it then run off.
I doubt they bother reporting it now as the Police can't be bothered with it anymore.
The problem lies a lot deeper than tackling the problem with alcohol bought over the counter. Kids need to be taught that there are consequences to their actions and to blindly respect adults and authority figures until they are adults themselves and are deemed fit to make their own choices.
I think the way to combat under-age drinking is to tackle adult facilitation of it. I understand that some of the alcohol is stolen, either from a shop, or parents stock, but most of the alcopops and cans of cheap lager are bought in a shop. That means that an adult is at fault. Either the person behind the counter in the shop, or the 18 year old who went in and bought booze for his 16 year old friend committed a crime and it is these adults who should be targeted.
I don't know what happens to an adult who is caught providing alcohol to a minor, in the UK or Ireland and I think that is part of the problem. I should know. Everyone should know. There must be some kind of punishment for it, but it is certainly not well publicized.
A well publicized campaign against the facilitators of under-age drinking, including TV adds vilifying them, might go some way towards changing peoples attitude to under-age binge drinking. Cast the kids in the role of victim, not perpetrator and under-age binge drinking might not look quite so rebellious.
Although 16 or 18 sounds so young, I think if your old enough to serve in the military than you should be able to drink. It's not really about a number (since we all are at a different level of readiness) so I think the key is not age but giving these kids all the information so they can make the best decision THEMSELVES. They will learn what it is like to be a grown up (we all have consequences) & you can feel confident that even though they may make the wrong decisions, they had all the information to make the decision. And this can apply easily to all things regarding young adults (sex, drugs, joining the military, etc.) If they know the drawbacks as well as the obvious pluses then they can decide if it's really what they want. Empower your kids to really do their homework in life & be in a position to make wise decision about their future.
i think if you are old enough to get married have your own house and have sex then you are mature enought to have a drink and a smoke.
its a bit confusing being able to have children buy your own house and get married without haveing a drink at your own wedding or house warming party or celebrate the birth of a child.
From the USA-Legal Age 21 is not the answer.
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