What comes first for you - the beer, or the pub?
When I read some other beer websites, I'm always surprised at how much focus is put on bottled beer, and how infrequently pubs are mentioned. It leads me toward dark thoughts about the average "beer geek" (to use the American term). Are there really self-proclaimed beer lovers who don't have locals, regular haunts where they're part of the furniture? Is beer a social thing for them, or is it some esoteric interest pursued behind closed doors in defiance of a cruel world outside?
Let me ask you this: what comes first for you - the beer, or the pub?
42 comments:
Good question, Stonch.
For me, the beer comes first.
But that's only because I don't have any place to drink within walking distance of my home, and no great places to drink without driving half an hour or more.
The legal blood-alcohol limit in Pennsylvania keeps getting lowered, so having two pints in an hour and then driving might be criminal, depending on the strength of the beer and your metabolism.
Getting busted for drunk driving is a major blemish on your reputation here, and it can be very expensive to deal with in court. At worst it can land you in jail.
If I lived in a bustling city, where I could walk to a bar or take public transportation or a cab, I'd probably go out for beer more often.
Also, I'd be more likely to patronize bars with no-smoking policies, but I don't know of any nearby that do voluntarily.
(Sly Fox in the Philly burbs has just done it. Cheers to them!)
I have a local, the Kingston Brew Pub, but somewhat by default in that it is a block from my work. We used to go there before we even moved to this City but I might only go four or five times a year tops other than for a lunch (but no beer) by myself when I really need a pub. By far the most beer goes down in my house including most beer in company. This however is a legit Maritime Canadian approach as "kitchen parties" are the norm where I grew up as no one had the cash to live in bars.
Stonch -
For me it's definitely beer first. I don't know because I've never been to your neck of the woods, but at least around here, "good" beer is a lot easier to come by than a good pub.
While, at least in Maine, there are a few really great pubs that I try and get to as often as I can, they're few & far between and most bars just have little to no selection.
On the other hand (again, at least in Maine), you can get "good" beer at the grocery store or even the gas station (all the Maine Micros distribute to the gas stations) while the same beers, if you can even find them in a bar, are 2 or 3 times more expensive.
I think Luke made an important point, outside of the right parts of Europe the situation is often that good beer is found more easily than a good pub. The boozers up the road from me are dire places where you can either be parted from your money for swill or sold swill at a bargain price. Neither are comfortsble or asphetically pleasing.
I certainly have an interest in pubs (pub geek?) and would lov a decent local.
Those are interesting perspectives from North America. I suppose I am looking at this from a British perspective, where pubs are unquestionably part of our national life, and can be found pretty much everywhere.
To be clear, I'm not really asking people to choose between a good pub/bar with terrible beer and the converse. To refine it a little, consider this: a great place, run by great people, that attracts a great crowd of people. It has only very mediocre beer. Elsewhere, there's a pub with a brilliant beer selection that's sterile and feels dead and uncomfortable, only frequented by grumpy sods (I've come across such places). Which do you choose?
For me, it's beer first, too. Even though I live in a touristy area with many fine restaurants within walking distance of me, the best I can get out there is Dogfish Head 60 Minute IPA usually, and that is on bottle anyway. All the taps are Bud, Bud Light, Coors Light, Miller Lite, Sam Adams, and Guinness.
I think the Pub is a largely British thing, which may be why the American's don't seem to get it. Also, for me, having a wife and kids makes me want to stick around home with them rather than go hang out at a bar.
Of course, I don't think that I am alone when I say that I prefer to share great beers with others. It's just that this type of thing tends to happen in our homes most of the time. Going out is fun and social, but most don't live very near a bar with really interesting beers. That makes going out more about sports on TV or playing pool or eating. But even eating out is disappointing when you have to settle for an adequate beer rather than reach for a gem.
Well...I'm from North America, and the pub absolutely comes first. My haunt of choice is Harvest Moon Brewery Cafe in New Brunswick, NJ. It is literally down the street from my apartment (in fact, I just spent the afternoon there). I'm there 3+ nights a week. If I was merely interested in the beer, I'd either exclusively drink bottled brews in my apartment or hit up a near by bar that has 24 taps of decent to great microbrews at all time.
The fact of the matter is that I love the atmosphere and the people at Harvest Moon, plus, they have some damn good beer. Consequently, I've had literally gallons of their oatmeal porter and pale ale this fall alone.
I don't think it's a choice, really. Me and Boak go to the pub rather a lot but there's often not much to write about -- they're near our house or offices, and have either rubbish beer or beer about which we've said everything there is to say. We go to the pub mostly to be with our friends. We like bottled beer because it gives us the chance to try things we don't see elsewhere and, I guess, then it is about the beer more than anything else. But we don't test it with litmus papers and check its colour against Pantone charts -- we drink it, make "Mmmmm!" noises (or otherwise...) and listen to records. Pleasant in its own way!
Stonch, I would take the good pub with medioca beer no question.
It's a toss-up for me. I hate to take the middle of the road, but it's all about context.
There are some great pubs here in Virginia; some have beer lists a mile long, others have a more lively atmosphere. There's one that strikes a happy medium which is right up the block for me, and that suits me just fine.
But I'd echo the sentiments of Eric and Luke about American beer culture. If I had to choose, the beer comes first, since the choice is practically made for me by default. However, I've made a few select establishments a home base.
I don't have access to good pubs here in Oslo, and there is hardly any good beer.
When I travel, I try to seek out good pubs with good and interesting beers. I like the coziness of a decent British pub, and while I'll happily pop into a 'spoons for a few halves of something new and rare, I'd rather spend the rest of the evning in a cozy pub with a more limited range.
The most extreme is Ireland, including Northern Ireland, where they have managed to build beer tourism while serving only one beer. There are some splendid pubs in both Dublin and Belfast, but my interest fades quickly when there in nothing interesting on.
So my answer is: The pub, provided they have a minimum of decent beers.
Give me a great pub every time Stonch. One can get a glow from within even if nitro keg is the only offering. Usually though a great pub has a great team behind it,they in turn listen to the customer and provide what ever it takes to keep us and the tills happy. Symbiosis at the highest level.
Party 7 raises a good point.
I'm not sure that, in practice, you really do get great pubs with crap beer.
A landlord/manager who runs a great pub is also going to be the sort who'll provide the drinks customers want.
Now, that doesn't mean there'll be a long list of rare or exciting beers, but it does mean that usually you'll get a couple of cask ales in good condition.
We don't really have to choose between good beer/good pub - the two go hand in hand in most cases.
"Now, that doesn't mean there'll be a long list of rare or exciting beers, but it does mean that usually you'll get a couple of cask ales in good condition."
perhaps in the Motherland this is true.
I'm late to this one and all my points have already been made above, particularly Knut's apt observation about Ireland, which has many fantastic pubs, almost all of which serve a tiny range of virtually exclusively crap beer.
You said that you can't have a good pub with crap beer because a good landlord will provide the drinks the customer wants. This makes the completely erroneous assumption that customers always want good beer. Surely you've noticed just how often this is not the case. In Ireland, it's basically a universal rule.
If I didn't live in an area with good pubs, I'd move! I chose the part of London I live in partly because it's central, but also because of the pubs.
When reading your comments yesterday I found myself muttering "how can a pub be good if they don't serve decent beer" so I guess for me it's all about the beer.
The beer a pub serves dictates the crowd it attracts and therefore the atmosphere. For example there are bars in Darlington that have all the character and atmosphere of the inside of an empty fridge, people go there to drink overpriced fizzy yellow stuff and "be seen". This is not my cup of tea I would not enjoy myself or drink there.
Conversely there are a smattering of places in town that do a decent pint and tend to attract a different crowd entirely. I feel more comfortable in these places and am more likely to enjoy myself (read "deem to have atmosphere").
If the "Fridge Bar" started serving decent beer, I'd drink there and chances are so would a number of others I know, this would cause the clientele to change and therefore the place would have atmosphere.
In conclusion Décor <> Atmosphere, or have I missed a point?
John, when I talk about "atmosphere" I'm talking about so much more than decor, which can be irrelevant.
Here's a strange, ranty piece I did on the blog months ago on the subject of "atmosphere".
John, The places that you observe selling "over priced fizzy yellow stuff" caters for that sort of clientel, because its what the customer wants. Are you saying that because its not your scene then there is no atmosphere at these establishments?. You also observed that they go there "to be seen" Sounds like the management have got there sums right at these places. One mans meat John.
Party7 - That's exactly what I'm saying. The term "Atmosphere", in this particular context, is extremely subjective. You rightly point out that there are horses for courses and I'm not saying that is a bad thing.
The comment didn't in anyway say that the people who frequent the "Fridge Bar" were wrong for doing so. I was merely attempting to illustrate the point that the beer determines the clientele and therefore the atmosphere.
The point I was making was that someone is more likely to drink somewhere that serves their poison surrounded by like minded folk rather than somewhere that serves beer they don't like with folk they have nothing in common with. For me it's a no brainier the beer determines where I drink full stop.
Perhaps mentioning the atmosphere of the place was an unnecessary diversion from the initial question however I stand by my comments.
NB. I acknowledge I have the luxury of choice and other folks may not be that lucky.
Just to throw something else (slightly cheeky) into the mix: I find most pubs and bars that are extremely beer-focussed are almost exclusively populated by men (or women who look like them). That's perhaps the biggest reservation I have about such places.
If I wanted to hang out with a load of blokes, I'd join the TA*.
* for overseas readers, the TA is the Territorial Army. Essentially, they're people who pretend to be soldiers on weekends at the taxpayer's expense.
Hands up who else thinks Stonch should join the TA for blogging purposes.
(Ireland's army reserve is called the FCA, widely acknowledged to stand for the Free Clothes Association.)
Let me get this straight you are saying that:-
1) Women + real ale = munter?
2) You'd compromise your principles in order to pull?
3) The entire TA only "pretend to be soldiers"?
Very revealing (and cheeky) indeed Stonch!
In answer to your questions:
1. No, not at all. I'm talking about a very specific type of real ale pub and the clientele it would tend to attract.
2. Yes, probably.
3. Have you never seen Gareth from The Office? Granted, that was fiction, but then I find it difficult to distinguish betweem the two.
Stonch, you phrase your question interestingly. Are you fundamentally asking your readers "do you have any friends or social skills, or do you just get drunk and fat on your own?" ?!
jon, errrr, no. That's not what I'm asking...
"To refine it a little, consider this: a great place, run by great people, that attracts a great crowd of people. It has only very mediocre beer."
I know a place like that. The Winner's Circle in Hanover, Pa. - a dark, smoke filled room with horse-racing-themed brown and orange decor circa 1972.
It only serves bottled beer, but there's always something decent to drink.
It has an interesting clientele, with a good mix of ages and socio-economic backgrounds. There's this old man who frequents the place. Drinks Bud Light, I think. Sometimes, when he gets a little tipsy, he pulls out his harmonica and plays a little tune. That's usually right before his wife drags him home...
If I lived in Hanover, I'd go there more often.
I think it's a very good question. For me it's all about the beer but it's not as simple as that I always see a pub as a place that sells beer, I never think "I know I'll just go down the pub and have a bacardi & coke"! So that said would you go to a restaurant that sold crap food? On my blog so far (early days) I've only spoken about bottled beers, this isn't because I wouldn't rather be in the pub (especially as I am lucky enougth to live within walking distance of a very good one that sells seven real ales from micros and constantly changes them) but because I have a family and after a day at work going to the pub if usually not an option. Can I be greedy and say that I want the combination of great pub and great beer. I feel another trip to Franconia coming on!
I think what Stonch is trying to say here is when you go into a pub to find only 15 old fat CAMRA members saying how this 3.9% bitter should be a best bitter due to %, and the convo then goes on for 2 hours with a lot of belly rumbling (and if i'm about belly slapping), it'ss hardly banter compared to a more cosmopolitan beer bar with a whole range of people, and the most important part women.
I found The Rake to be one of the finest bars I've ever been in, whereas Oud Arsanal in Antwerp is not so hot. The reason I compare the two is both are outstanding pubs, but one is filled with chain smoking old lambic freaks who have no banter, and The Rake is filled with a whole range of people with a similar beer selection (not the same beers but in terms of lots of different great beers), but is where I'd choose to go.
Up here in Glasgow I'd say the best comparison is the Bon Accord v. Blackfriars. Both have great beer selections, but Bon is filled with beer geeks who insist on telling the same shite bar story everytime you meet them. The Blackfriars has a whole variety of people in it, though perhaps too many people at times, and you can meet some great people there (such as myself).
Is the content of the conversation important. I accept that stuffy conversation about beer styles and other such nonsense may be taboo but the range of content of beer related websites and blogs as well as my experience of great pubs in the UK and Germany show that this is not always the case. I think the conversation can be affected by the place and the people you are with but this is rarely (in my experience) a bad thing. Oh and by the way my great beer local is run by women.
Pub with a decent juke box or live band and plenty of fizzy yellow stuff behind the bar.
I live out in the sticks - previously lived in London for a few years, but I'm out in Bucks for work. Me and the missus don't really have any friends in the local area at all, so for us it's the beer that gets us into the pub.
We're lucky that our local is a great Fuller's house, with a landlord committed to real ale. I guess if we had friends up here, we might be prepared to lower our standards slightly for a social gathering. When I visit friends in London though, I always try to steer us toward a venue serving some decent beer.
For me there's no choice possible between both things because they are, from my perspective of beer and enjoyment, really intertwined. But as the question about the different kind of pubs has diverted the topic into a second one, I would like to add a personal idea:
A Pub means something less trivial than a place selling drinks, It's a place where you develop a part of your soul, your social life.And no matter if you spend 5 hours or 1 in the pub,It gives you something special that complements your existence.
I think it's something totally necessary. In a pub you relax yourself, you change ideas and perspectives, you laugh, you cry as well... Summing up, you live.
Of course, if you add a competent list of beers it should be the perfect match.
As a Mediterranean European I couldn't live without all that experiences the pub provides.
Bottled beer, tasting notes, sublime ecstasy with your brew it's something a bit more personal that can be carried out in the solitude of your living room
It ain't a good pub without good beer so it's a hand in hand thing. As for drinking at home from bottles - why would anybody wan't to?!
Because, A Swift One, the pubs only sell kegged beer on draught and filtered, pasteurised brewed-under-licence macroswill in bottles. Duh!
There really isn't anything to compare with a decent pint of real ale in a decent pub - a decent pub = one with no music, basic furnishings, very few people crowding the bar and one that sells Twiglets.
Given the choice though between a decent bottle of beer at home and Nitro keg in a pub full of tossers, I'd plump for the beer at home everytime.
beer - as said many. many times, i take it as read that if they serve good beer, then its a good pub, regardless of how it looks or clientele. good post though!
beer - as said many. many times, i take it as read that if they serve good beer, then its a good pub, regardless of how it looks or clientele. good post though!
beer - as said many. many times, i take it as read that if they serve good beer, then its a good pub, regardless of how it looks or clientele. good post though!
I have to translate "pub" into the closest US equivalent to answer this. And still, my answer is "it depends." I tend to patronize the local brewpubs, because I can get fresh, good tasting beer. So maybe it's the beer. But then... There is one that has beer of variable quality, but I keep going back. Why? For the atmosphere. I just like the place. So maybe it's the pub. Where do I go most often? The places where I get good beer and a good atmosphere. So I think it's really both and neither. For me.
Which pubs 'Beer Nut'? Your locals surely can't be that bad! If my interest in beer had to revolve around taking bottles home from the offy I'd be looking for another interest!
Almost every pub in Ireland, A Swift One. Seemingly this has to be seen to be believed.
My interest in beer doesn't entirely revolve around taking bottles home from the offy: a fair bit of it involves leaving the country.
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